whoever wins, their first 2 years'll be difficult yet easy to explain away...

RickySlade · Post by **RickySlade** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:56 am

You don't know what "I trust him" means? Really? It's a wonder you aren't married! LOL. I trust him...I think he will make decisions based on what is best to protect the people and consitution of this country. Do I expect him to always be 100% right, no (see my comment on his decision to support the bailout), but I do think he is 100% dedicated to this country and it's people.

That's something I don't understand...what makes you think Obama won't?

TTBHG · Post by **TTBHG** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:02 am

I would love for Doc to chime in. I enjoy reading his thoughts and views because he is the least partisan person with strong political beliefs that I have ever seen. I would vote for Doc if he ran for higher office.

G8rMom7 · Post by **G8rMom7** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:30 pm

Eric, did I say I didn't think Obama wasn't dedicated to the country? You asked me one reason why I'm voting for John McCain and because I didn't give you some intellectual answer I'm sort of written off as a partisan idiot voting with my emotion? Whatever.

As far as the Constitution goes, I guess you're saying that we should just trash it and start all over? And with an all Liberal government (totally partisan) you think they'd do a better job of re-writing it?

RickySlade · Post by **RickySlade** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:43 pm

Eric asked for "your single biggest issue that seperates him from Obama." I don't think it's a stretch to assume that the reason given is something you don't see in the other candidate. So...why don't you trust Obama to make decisions based on what is best to protect the people and constitution of this country?

TTBHG · Post by **TTBHG** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:50 pm

Eric, did I say I didn't think Obama wasn't dedicated to the country? You asked me one reason why I'm voting for John McCain and because I didn't give you some intellectual answer I'm sort of written off as a partisan idiot voting with my emotion? Whatever.

As far as the Constitution goes, I guess you're saying that we should just trash it and start all over? And with an all Liberal government (totally partisan) you think they'd do a better job of re-writing it?

Wow, I have no idea where to start. I think you got your feelings hurt for no reason. I never called you partisan, idiot or anything close. Nor did I say I would rewrite the constitution. I thought we could have a discussion but apparently I was wrong.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:53 pm

DocZaius · Post by **DocZaius** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:32 pm

I would love for Doc to chime in. I enjoy reading his thoughts and views because he is the least partisan person with strong political beliefs that I have ever seen. I would vote for Doc if he ran for higher office.

Nonsense. I'm as partisan as they come. I don't think I've ever voted for a Democrat in a national election (though I think I threw a libertarian a vote for Governor of Maryland last time though).

I can identify with m7's "trust" issue. John McCain is a known quantity in this regard - I don't think you can question the man's loyalty or service to this country. Even if he's wrong on some issues, he is well-intentioned.

Furthermore, the guy has a pretty lengthy track record. I think this is the best way to see where he stands - by what he's done, not what he's saying now. All politicians lie to get votes - every damn one of them - which is why I don't really get the idea that McCain was somehow a different guy in 2000 than in 2008. Newsflash: the man hasn't changed, only the rhetoric has.

Obama, because he's only been a national figure for a few years, doesn't have that kind of record. That's why there's so much hullaballoo about his associations with Ayers, Wright, Rezko and others. We don't have enough record to really know what he believes in.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:38 pm

I would love for Doc to chime in. I enjoy reading his thoughts and views because he is the least partisan person with strong political beliefs that I have ever seen. I would vote for Doc if he ran for higher office.

Nonsense. I'm as partisan as they come. I don't think I've ever voted for a Democrat in a national election (though I think I threw a libertarian a vote for Governor of Maryland last time though).

I can identify with m7's "trust" issue. John McCain is a known quantity in this regard - I don't think you can question the man's loyalty or service to this country. Even if he's wrong on some issues, he is well-intentioned.

Furthermore, the guy has a pretty lengthy track record. I think this is the best way to see where he stands - by what he's done, not what he's saying now. All politicians lie to get votes - every damn one of them - which is why I don't really get the idea that McCain was somehow a different guy in 2000 than in 2008. Newsflash: the man hasn't changed, only the rhetoric has.

Obama, because he's only been a national figure for a few years, doesn't have that kind of record. That's why there's so much hullaballoo about his associations with Ayers, Wright, Rezko and others. We don't have enough record to really know what he believes in.

masterfully written as usual doc

i'd add that i think the world will come to know what obama is and believes in for certain in the next 4 years at least....

would it have been so wrong to have established oneself nationally and dispel such notions and preconceived thoughts before taking a national spotlight?

TTBHG · Post by **TTBHG** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:40 pm

You are selling yourself short, Doc. I have read your posts and you call a spade a spade. If a rebublican fucks up you will call them out for it. A partisan person would find excuses for it and brush it aside. You are less partisan then you let on.

BTW, I did vote for three republicans on my ballot this morning. I know that will get Hater all hot and bothered down below.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:28 pm

Doc,

Have you read Obama's book The Audacity of Hope? That pretty much lays out the things he believes in.

And let's not forget McCain has some questionable friends, like Charles Keating, as well.

And you are right that McCain is a known quantity. However, as I have mentioned before, he is not the same guy who ran in 2000. He has compromised his principles in order to win. And considering that he backed the Iraq War and is one of the chief cheerleaders for it, and that he picked an unqualified person to be his VP, his judgment is in question as well. He failed those tests of leadership.

Not a slam on you, just my two cents of commentary. After spending way to much time at Too Hot, its nice to have a civil discussion when you have a difference of opinion.

DocZaius · Post by **DocZaius** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:34 pm

Doc,

Have you read Obama's book The Audacity of Hope? That pretty much lays out the things he believes in.

Does it? I have not read it, but from summaries I have read it appears to be a book with singular purpose: to sell Barack Obama. I don't know. Maybe he talks himself down in it. I haven't read John McCain's book, either (or that of any politician), but I imagine he tries to sell himself, too.

And let's not forget McCain has some questionable friends, like Charles Keating, as well.

True enough, but I think McCain realized how big he screwed things up and was quick to distance himself from that scandal. Further, since the scandal, he made bipartisan campaign finance reform a major focus of his work in the Senate. I think he's truly repentant over his involvement (he was exonerated of wrongdoing, by the way).

And you are right that McCain is a known quantity. However, as I have mentioned before, he is not the same guy who ran in 2000. He has compromised his principles in order to win. And considering that he backed the Iraq War and is one of the chief cheerleaders for it, and that he picked an unqualified person to be his VP, his judgment is in question as well. He failed those tests of leadership.

Again, I fail to see how he suddenly sold his soul - after decades of public service - in order to win. What was it? What, exactly, are these changes that you folks keep going on about?

I can understand your principled opposition to the Iraq War, and on that issue I can see why you wouldn't vote for McCain. Obama, however, is fortunate that he did not have to put his money where his mouth was - he never had the opportunity to cast a meaningful vote on the War. Would you feel differently about him if he had been a Senator in 2003 and voted with the majority?

I'm man enough to admit that although I thought Sarah Palin was an excellent choice at the time, I'm having second thoughts. Don't get me wrong - I don't think she's stupid, unprincipled, corrupt or a religious nut. But I don't think she's ready for such a public national office (I don't think Obama is ready, either).

Not a slam on you, just my two cents of commentary. After spending way to much time at Too Hot, its nice to have a civil discussion when you have a difference of opinion.

No offense taken.

a1bion · Post by **a1bion** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:57 pm

I'm making my decision based on policies, not personality.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:20 pm

Doc,

He has flip flopped on issues he once opposed - he was the only Republican who voted against W's tax cuts calling them irresponsible. Now he is for them. He is now best buddies with the religious right, after previously calling them agents of intolerance. He promised to run a campaign based on issues, and now he has hired the VERY SAME operative who smeared him in 2000 to run his slimy campaign. And most importantly, he embraced W and voted with him over 89% of the time.

Time and again, he has flip flopped on the issues and has become the candidate he used to deride. He sold his soul to win. And he will not win.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:22 pm

Doc,

He has flip flopped on issues he once opposed - he was the only Republican who voted against W's tax cuts calling them irresponsible. Now he is for them. He is now best buddies with the religious right, after previously calling them agents of intolerance. He promised to run a campaign based on issues, and now he has hired the VERY SAME operatives who smeared him in 2000 to run his slimy campaign. And most importantly, he embraced W and voted with him over 89% of the time.

Time and again, he has flip flopped on the issues and has become the candidate he used to deride. He sold his soul to win. And he will not win.

And to answer your question,yes I would feel differently about Obama had he voted for it. That was one of the reasons I wasn't for Hillary in the primaries. And yes I realize that Biden voted for it. I'm not happy about that either.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:31 am

are we saying obama has never flip flopped? i get your point about mccain but how is obama exempt from the same type of criticism?

TheTodd · Post by **TheTodd** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:34 am

Doc,

He has flip flopped on issues he once opposed - he was the only Republican who voted against W's tax cuts calling them irresponsible. Now he is for them. He is now best buddies with the religious right, after previously calling them agents of intolerance. He promised to run a campaign based on issues, and now he has hired the VERY SAME operative who smeared him in 2000 to run his slimy campaign. And most importantly, he embraced W and voted with him over 89% of the time.

Time and again, he has flip flopped on the issues and has become the candidate he used to deride. He sold his soul to win. And he will not win.

I'm with slidey on this point. And I was still a McCain lean until his VP nomination. I felt that McCain could have won without the moral minority.

They all change their opinions over time. Most people do as they grown and learn.

DocZaius · Post by **DocZaius** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:18 am

Doc,

He has flip flopped on issues he once opposed - he was the only Republican who voted against W's tax cuts calling them irresponsible. Now he is for them.

I think he is now against repealing them. There's a difference, but I'll grant you that's a flip-flop (or waffle, if you will). But somehow I don't think that goes to the "meat" of the whole McCain-is-a-different-man-now argument.

He is now best buddies with the religious right, after previously calling them agents of intolerance.

I put this in the "gotta do what I gotta do to win" camp. My biggest concern with the current Republican Party is the influence of the religious right. I have no problem with religion or religious folks, but I don't believe Intelligent^H^H^ Creationism is a valid scientific theory. I don't think religious influences should govern national politics, as we are too diverse a nation for that to be fair. For the same reason, I'm not that big a fan of the gay marriage debate.

He promised to run a campaign based on issues, and now he has hired the VERY SAME operative who smeared him in 2000 to run his slimy campaign.

Who? Steve Schmidt? Rick Davis? I wasn't aware that either one was involved in the 2000 smears. Or are you talking about someone else?

Besides, EVERY candidate promises to run based on issues and EVERY candidate fails to do that. That doesn't make it right, but that doesn't make him any different, either.

And most importantly, he embraced W and voted with him over 89% of the time.

So what? They're both in the same party, which indicates to me that they both share a lot of common views. I don't know the numbers, but I betcha that Barack Obama voted win lockstep with Congressional Democrats as much or more than that.

Time and again, he has flip flopped on the issues and has become the candidate he used to deride. He sold his soul to win. And he will not win.

He probably won't win, but I still don't buy the "sold his soul" argument.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:20 am

are we saying obama has never flip flopped? i get your point about mccain but how is obama exempt from the same type of criticism?

I never said Obama was above criticism. But McCain's flip flops are tunning completely against the image that he has created for himself. He is running counter to what he had proclaimed himself to be. And when you vote with Bush over 90% of the time, that's not a maverick, that's a sidekick.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:23 am

Doc,

Schmidt is a Rove disciple who was involved in the 2000 race for Bush.

See my above comment to Rad. When you fundamentally alter ever position you ever held to do anything to win, you have sold your soul. He is not a straight talking maverick now - he is a double talking Bush yes-man. I have lost all respect for him now.

I anticipate his retirement from the Senate in 2010.

a1bion · Post by **a1bion** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:26 am

I'm with Doc in not buying the "McCain is a different man" meme. I think what I've learned this year is that the schtick he put out there in 2000 was utter bullshit to begin with.

TheTodd · Post by **TheTodd** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:31 am

Interesting take Josh.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:31 am

mccain's got a lot of history to criticize...obama's got very little.

is that a good thing or a bad thing for obama?

a1bion · Post by **a1bion** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:35 am

mccain's got a lot of history to criticize...obama's got very little.

is that a good thing or a bad thing for obama?

Like I said before, I'm making my decision based on policy stances, not personality or personal history. I could care less about people cheating on their wife and what not.

TheTodd · Post by **TheTodd** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:39 am

what are your most important policy stances?

DocZaius · Post by **DocZaius** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:42 am

I'm with Doc in not buying the "McCain is a different man" meme.  I think what I've learned this year is that the schtick he put out there in 2000 was utter bullshit to begin with.

That is an interesting take, but I think you have to go back prior to 2000 to see where the whole "maverick" thing started.

The Arizona Republic has a 12-part biography of McCain that I think gives a pretty unbiased view of his career.