Here's my thing about the "mosque near ground zero" controversy

[annarborgator]

Didn't the U.S. build a massive government worship center (aka embassy) in the Green Zone in Baghdad after destroying much of the city and killing thousands of Iraqi civilians??

[G8rMom7]

My thoughts are as follows...I seriously think that we should provide our Muslim brothers an opportunity to show how tolerant they are (as they profess to be and accuse we Americans of NOT being). We should raise money for local businessmen to open up a pork BBQ restaurant on one side...a gay bar on the other side and then on every piece of open pavement there should be artwork devoted to pigs...statues, paintings and what not. We all know everyone has the RIGHT (a term used SO incorrectly these days) to build there, but is it the RIGHT thing to do if you are truly interested in making a gesture towards reconciliation?

The guys at Hillbuzz that I frequent insist on calling it the Ground Zero Victory Mosque.

[annarborgator]

If this group of muslims had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks (highly likely that they had no connection to the attacks since it's so unlikely that muslims had anything to with them to begin with), why do they need to be concerned with "making reconciliation"?

And, given the fact that America has occupied islamic countries for some time and destroyed their sovereignty for decades now, are they not "right" to parade women in burqas outside your church to antagonize you or send their girls to your kids' public school in burqas or something like that to mess with you? None of what we've done to them has been right and yet we find it terribly convenient to ignore the destruction we've wrought upon their innocents...and we feel wronged when they take advantage of their inalienable rights? I don't get it.

[annarborgator]

Great article from Raimondo at antiwar.com....best quote..."Muslims are the new Negroes."

Which underscores a point libertarians have often made: that the freedoms we all take for granted are predicated on the centrality of private property as the very basis of our civilization and true liberalism (in the classical sense). There is no freedom of the press if you can’t own a press (or a web site). There can be no political and religious freedom without economic freedom.
{...}
I used to think we were better than that: and by “we,” I don’t just mean libertarians, but the whole damned country. Can it really be true that people will fall for this kind of obvious emotional manipulation and demagoguery?

I refuse to believe it. If only the President hadn’t backed away, no doubt heeding the advice of his pollsters and political hatchet men, he could have turned this into a teachable moment, and shown his capacity for real leadership. The average American hates a bully, and the clownish Gingrich is such a vulnerable target: a veritable piñata waiting to be burst. The first major political figure to step forward and do the honors will find he or she has more support than they ever imagined.

This is really the acid test for civil libertarians of both the left and the right, because if the lynch mob succeeds it will set a terrible precedent – one we may all come to regret only when it’s too late.

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/08/17/cordoba-house-the-acid-test/

[radbag]

see - this is my issue with not only America but this generation specifically...it's the 'rights' issue...the right to do anything we want.

i have the right to do whatever i want but i usually try and consider everything else before i consider myself...the whole 'what's in it for me' mentality is creating this type of society...no one anymore considers what is good for the society as a whole...no one is concerned about the fellow neighbor...everyone's concerned moreso about their individual rights.

all the dickwads out there that are selfish and self-absorbed will not affect my attitudes and behavior...i will still continue to concern myself about how my actions and decisions affect society as a whole...i'll continue to be courteous and will never change my values just because the selfish continue to want to exercise their 'rights'

[annarborgator]

I'm not sure how that applies to this situation Matt.

[radbag]

the muslims have the right to build on TOP of the WTC site if they like...we all have rights...my point is - i analyze at great lengths how my actions my affect others or the greater good of the society...i won't open a steakhouse in a hindu neighborhood though it's my right to do so...i won't open a ku klux klan chapter in harlem though it's my right to do so...i won't eat my meal before everyone else has been served though it's my right to do so...i won't discuss my fortunes or windfalls with people who are finding it difficult to survive though it's my right to do so.

[annarborgator]

Fair enough. I think I judge the person who would be offended by such things more harshly than I judge the person who's ignorant or insensitive about how their actions offend someone else.

Except the KKK thing due to their beliefs about other people, it's rational to judge them negatively. The other stuff is just based on irrational traditions that people have internalized.

[radbag]

as a person who would be judged, i just shake my head and lament even more about the current state of our society...i guess i can join in and protest but i don't find that to be productive use of my time.

martha burke protested Augusta National because they wouldn't allow women into the club...no progress on that front but she had a right to protest.

personally - i'd not want to join a club that wouldn't allow filipino's into it...i'd certainly not want to be a part of that club if they'd relaxed the rules due to my protest....so what the hell is the protest all about? in the end, my right to protest is infringing upon the rights of those people in that club to congregate free of filipinos...why/who am i to infringe upon their right to select who they wish to spend their time with?

[IHateUGAlyDawgs]

It is highly unlikely muslims had anything to do with 9/11???

You care to elaborate on that one just for a minute?

[DocZaius]

It is highly unlikely muslims had anything to do with 9/11???

You care to elaborate on that one just for a minute?

Yeah, I was following AA's argument and can see his point of view on this one, even if I don't completely agree with it, but that statement threw me for a loop, too.

[annarborgator]

Let's just say that I don't buy the official story of 9/11.

[IHateUGAlyDawgs]

ok.

Credibility of argument, then...0.

[annarborgator]

ok.

Credibility of argument, then...0.

So it's as credible as the official story, then? Good to know.

[G8rMom7]

Rad...I am right there with you...I think the whole "I have a right to" thing is misused. I sort of go in a tangent from you in that I DO think those rights given to use by God (my belief) or "our creator" or "natural rights" etc. ARE individual rights...right to pursue happiness, right to life, right to freedom (both to succeed AND FAIL). These rights are not given my government, they are part of our DNA...part of our humanity.

The problem I have is saying that I have a right to good health care, or a job, or to have a car. Those are not RIGHTS because someone else has to provide those opportunities to you.

That's where I was going when I talked about "having the right to build". But I see your point too...it's like this Muslim leader I heard say...having a RIGHT, doesn't mean it's the RIGHT thing to do. You are SO right about people only considering "what's in it for them"...however, what you're talking about is a social issue...people basically not raising their kids right...no manners, etc. I was coming from more of a constitutional/legal perspective. I could write more but the pizza guy just delivered our food, so I'm gonna eat (IT'S MY RIGHT TO ENJOY A SLICE OF PIZZA for cryin' out loud!)

[annarborgator]

Lebanon Becoming More American than America.....these folks have suffered the fate of the equivalent of dozens of 9'11's at the hands of Israel and they don't seem to have a problem with a synagogue being built in their equivalent of ground zero....

http://www.zeropartypolitics.com/2010/08/ground-zero-synagoguelebanon-becoming.html