Don't Vote!

[annarborgator]

Government is accountable to the voters, AA.

I'm not sure how. Once somebody has political office they can do what they want and the voters have to shut up and take it for four years (or more).

[slideman67]

Slider...I am not a tea bagger...however, I am a Tea Party Patriot. And to be honest, I can't understand how any diehard Democrat could be happy about what the far left has done to your party. I read a blog on a daily basis written by gay guys from Chicago who were Hillary supporters and have now made it their mission to take down the current Democratic party which is now just a shell of what it used to be.

I wish we were back in the days when both parties could agree on the basics...smaller gov't, run by THE PEOPLE and individual liberty. Then we could just argue over the social issues at a local level. THAT would be MY utopia.

Quick question for you, and I am asking in all sincerity as I truly do not know - what does being a Tea Party Patriot mean, and how is it different than being a conservative? Not a slam, just looking for a clarification.

[radbag]

Slider...I am not a tea bagger...however, I am a Tea Party Patriot. And to be honest, I can't understand how any diehard Democrat could be happy about what the far left has done to your party. I read a blog on a daily basis written by gay guys from Chicago who were Hillary supporters and have now made it their mission to take down the current Democratic party which is now just a shell of what it used to be.

I wish we were back in the days when both parties could agree on the basics...smaller gov't, run by THE PEOPLE and individual liberty. Then we could just argue over the social issues at a local level. THAT would be MY utopia.

Quick question for you, and I am asking in all sincerity as I truely do not know - what does being a Tea Party Patriot mean, and how is it different than being a conservative? Not a slam, just looking for a clarification.

i think being a tea party guy is more than being a conservative in that tea party guys are more of a grass roots movement...not centralized...not nearly as organized in all facets...very much a simple, no-frills movement of the people which is not nearly as organized as the conservative republicans who know their way around capitol hill and all the 'ways of DC'

the tea party movement in my eyes are a movement, an organized effort...borne of the will of the people...i dunno...that's how i feel.

[annarborgator]

The funny thing is to watch people try to put labels onto the tea party folks. It was started with a tiny group of folks on an internet forum back in 2007/08. It's entirely grassroots but has begun to be taken over by the establishment pubs/libertarians like the Kochs and palin, etc.

Yet another case study of how politics is never the answer for society's ills.

[slideman67]

Slider...I am not a tea bagger...however, I am a Tea Party Patriot. And to be honest, I can't understand how any diehard Democrat could be happy about what the far left has done to your party. I read a blog on a daily basis written by gay guys from Chicago who were Hillary supporters and have now made it their mission to take down the current Democratic party which is now just a shell of what it used to be.

I wish we were back in the days when both parties could agree on the basics...smaller gov't, run by THE PEOPLE and individual liberty. Then we could just argue over the social issues at a local level. THAT would be MY utopia.

Quick question for you, and I am asking in all sincerity as I truely do not know - what does being a Tea Party Patriot mean, and how is it different than being a conservative? Not a slam, just looking for a clarification.

i think being a tea party guy is more than being a conservative in that tea party guys are more of a grass roots movement...not centralized...not nearly as organized in all facets...very much a simple, no-frills movement of the people which is not nearly as organized as the conservative republicans who know their way around capitol hill and all the 'ways of DC'

the tea party movement in my eyes are a movement, an organized effort...borne of the will of the people...i dunno...that's how i feel.

Check out the recent NYTimes story about the Koch Brothers - the billionaires who are financing the Tea Party movement. Eye opening stuff.

[annarborgator]

lulz. We all know about the Kochs slider. Nobody here is dumb. That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of tea partiers are non-partisan, individualistic, and simply want to be left the fuck alone.

[slideman67]

Really? Since when has there been a commentary about the Koch Brothers?

[annarborgator]

Really? Since when has there been a commentary about the Koch Brothers?

Well I mentioned them 20+ minutes before you did and the issue has been alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll over libertarian and tea party websites/blogs for months now. Perhaps you need to get out of your fucking echo chamber more often.

[slideman67]

One comment by you does not a discussion make.

Anyway, why do you care? You are not going to vote and care nothing about how the government works.

[slideman67]

Here's one of many discussions of the Koch Brothers that is out there. And one I can conveneintly find this late at night.

http://www.readersupportednews.org/off-site-opinion-section/72-72/3749-the-tea-party-movement-deluded-and-inspired-by-billionaires

[annarborgator]

Like I said, in my second point which I made a point to emphasize, it has been discussed everywhere among folks who actually care about the reality of the tea party.

I personally don't care that much, but I also can't stand when people parrot bullshit talking points to downplay other people in an irrational fashion.

[annarborgator]

So, who will you vote for? The pusher robot or the shover robot? Those are your choices. Or you can choose to regain a bit of your dignity by telling them both to FUCK OFF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E0ot9iJm_k#

[radbag]

yes slider.........we all know about what the kochs do and we all know what soros does as well.

Here's one of many discussions of the Koch Brothers that is out there. And one I can conveneintly find this late at night.

http://www.readersupportednews.org/off-site-opinion-section/72-72/3749-the-tea-party-movement-deluded-and-inspired-by-billionaires

i'm reading this guys article...i take it with a grain of salt to be honest because i know he's got an angle...most of the articles you reference are usually written by guys with huge axes to grind...so i'm reading it and it says koch industries is the second-largest private company in the US....i don't think it is.

http://www.carahsoft.com/pdf/WBJ100LargestPrivateCompaniesJuly2010.pdf

[slideman67]

That was the article I found last night at 11:30. There are plenty of others out there. You recently had one in the NY Times that you probably saw.

Bottom line - this is not a grassroots movement. It is an Astroturf movement funded by Republican billionaires.

[radbag]

i'm not looking to change your mind or view on how the tea party got started...one thing's for sure, they're a huge impact on this years mid-elections...you should acknowledge that for that alone and not because of what you've read.

[DocZaius]

So, who will you vote for? The pusher robot or the shover robot? Those are your choices. Or you can choose to regain a bit of your dignity by telling them both to FUCK OFF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E0ot9iJm_k#

Stairs?

[annarborgator]

I have long been of the view that parents have a moral obligation to keep their children from living under tyranny. As such, how do I go about the task of helping to make their world one in which they may enjoy the conditions of peace and liberty? My experience convinces me that participation in electoral politics is more than futile: it only adds energy to the system; it confirms the central premise of all political thinking, namely: important change can occur only within the halls of government. Besides the fact that the electoral process is unavoidably rigged in favor of the status quo, it also assures that, no matter who you vote for, the government always gets elected. Voting is designed to give people the false sense that they are in control of the machinery and the policies of the state. Emma Goldman got it right when she said that "if voting changed anything, they’d make it illegal."

My opposition to voting arises from the same sense as my opposition to other forms of violence. Implicit in efforts to persuade the state to act according to your preferences – whether through voting, lobbying, or threats of force – is the idea that, should you prevail, others will be compelled to abide by what you have chosen for them. Voting is anything but the peaceful alternative to violence: it is premised on the coercive machinery of the state being employed on your behalf should you prevail in amassing a greater number of people on your side than do others.

More direct forms of violence – as some suggest to be the ultimate solution to statism – is likewise inconsistent with a condition of liberty. Violence is an expression of reactive anger, born of unrequited frustration. Violence is the very essence of the state: can one expect mankind to free itself of political destructiveness by adopting its very essence?

We will not become free when the state goes away. Rather, the state will go away once we are free. "Freedom" is a very personal quality, wherein the individual enjoys a centered, integrated life, free of the conflicts and contradictions that make up our normally neurotic lives. We must learn to respect the inviolability of one another’s lives and other property interests if we are to enjoy this inner sense of being free. A need for liberty is what we have in common with one another, but we will only grasp this fact when each of us is free of the inner forces that keep us divided and in conflict.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer224.html

[annarborgator]

Lysander Spooner on voting:

“These voters, having given their votes in secret have put it out of your power to designate your principals individually. You have no legal knowledge as to who voted for you. And being unable to designate your principals individually, you have no right to say that you have any principals. And having no right to say that you have any principals, you are mere usurpers, making laws and enforcing them upon your own authority alone. A secret ballot makes a secret government; and a secret government is nothing else than a government by conspiracy. And a government by conspiracy is the only government we now have. You say that “every voter exercises a public trust.” Who appointed him to that trust? Nobody. He simply usurped the power; he never accepted the trust. And because he usurped the power, he dares exercise it only in secret. Not one of all the voters who helped to place you in power would have dared to do so if he had known that he was to be held personally responsible for the acts of those for whom he voted.”

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/68400.html

[annarborgator]

What cracks me up about this thread is that there has yet to be posed a single legitimate argument against my position. People have invoked tradition, emotion, and unfounded positions....and yet I've seen no coherent argument against what I've posited.

Kinda sad, but doesn't really surprise me.

[IHateUGAlyDawgs]

AA, there is no argument against it that you would consider rational, because you're so firmly entrenched in your position that you see it as the only one logical.

I, personally, think yours is the one based off of illogical overreaction and emotion, and quite frankly, off the deep end. But, hey, what do I know? I'm just a statist.

[annarborgator]

AA, there is no argument against it that you would consider rational, because you're so firmly entrenched in your position that you see it as the only one logical.

I, personally, think yours is the one based off of illogical overreaction and emotion, and quite frankly, off the deep end. But, hey, what do I know? I'm just a statist.

I'm perfectly willing to consider an argument and see what it has to offer. Where has one been presented in this thread? Please quote it if you can find it and if not then present it now. I know you said that national defense was one area you saw a need for government but I don't recall you offering an argument for why that need exists. I'll go back now and see if I can find it, and if you find such an argument please quote it so I can consider it and then see if it has flaws.

I've offered my arguments repeatedly and never had them criticized in a logical manner. People just say "it won't work" or "you're crazy" or "you're dishonoring your ancestors", which aren't actual arguments.

I could have easily missed a real argument against my position, though. Please point it out.

[annarborgator]

**I should clarify: please point me to an argument that's not clearly fallacious. Because I've pointed out dozens of logical fallacies already in this thread. So, invalid arguments have certainly been offered...but they've all been obviously invalid.

[DocZaius]

I voted.

[IHateUGAlyDawgs]

voted over a week ago.

[annarborgator]

Can I ask why?

Is the explanation any deeper than "because I can"?